Last week’s Ventnor Town Council meeting (Monday, 5 October 2009) was a little more than ‘extraordinary’. Despite the short agenda, the public question time at the beginning was extended from the usual 15 mins to well over an hour.
As only an overview of the meeting was reported elsewhere, we felt our readers might appreciate an accurate and more detailed account of what happened at the meeting. What follows is straight reporting of the facts without opinion or comment.
By 7pm, the main hall of the Ventnor Winter Gardens was (unusually) filled with around 120-130 members of the public.
Plans Committee
Proceedings started with the Plans Committee which had to be adjourned for a short period of time as Cllrs Perks and Welsford were in discussion with the Town Clerk.
They returned to join the meeting after many members of the audience started slow hand clapping. The one planning application on the agenda was considered, refused and the meeting closed.
Town Meeting opens
The Extraordinary Town Council meeting was then able to commence, starting with apologies for absence recorded for Cllr Nettleton (who arrived later) and Cllr George.
As concessionaire of the Winter Gardens, Cllr Perks declared an interest in any discussions regarding the venue.
Public questions
The first question came from Ventnor resident, Mr Hanley, who once again (having made the same request at a previous TC meeting) asked for parking provision to be made for members of the public using the Eastern esplanade with sea trailers.
Cllr Welsford stated that in his capacity as Ward Councillor for the area, he would take the matter up at County Hall.
The next question came from Valerie Lockwood, a WG volunteer and trustee, who asked Cllr Perks why he’d resigned from his concession at the Winter Gardens.
This was met with applause from the audience.
Response by Cllr Perks
Cllr Perks started his response by stating that he needed “to be careful not to put a foot wrong, because I’m being referred to an investigation for assessment of the sub-committee of Ethical Standards, because of the way I voted on the Jazz Festival”.
He went on to say that his first two years at the Winter Gardens were very good. More shows were going on, he was employing more staff, the turnover was going up and everything was rosy.
Then the elections came and he claimed that certain councilors on the blog referred to his flags in the bar and that perhaps he was a secret BNP member. He said that he is patriotic but not a member of the BNP.
He also said that another comment on VB was that he was no way to be considered as a part of the management of the Winter Gardens, he confirmed to the audience that he had been asked by the previous clerk, John Farrant and ex-Cllr, Maureen Cawley to be involved with the entertainment side of things.
Post election
He went onto say that after the elections, things started to change due to cancellation of shows, a lack of manager, none of the cancelled shows had been replaced, and all this directly affected his staff, the takings and in his view, the popularity of venue.
Cllr Perks continued, saying that there were only three shows between then and Christmas, but only one of them required a bar.
He referred to the “upset” over ticket sales for the Cleo Laine and Johnny Dankworth gig, stating that although some other councillors don’t believe they should get involved in local business, he felt that they should all be looking at getting Ventnor on the map as an entertainment venue (met by great applause from the audience).
He went on to say that although the ticket office at the WG is not selling tickets for the gig, he was selling them behind the bar.
The list of concerns, which have led him to his resignation, continued with Cllr Perks’ dissatisfaction that the Andy Fairweather Low gig had not been promoted on the WG Website, but despite this it attracted a good crowd.
Meeting with other councillors
He went onto to refer to a meeting held between himself, Cllr Welsford and Cllr George where it was agreed that there would be weekly meetings with regard to the day-to-day running of the venue. Cllr Perks stated that as licensee for the premises he felt that he deserved to have all details of shows, how many tickets sold etc so that he could organise his staff and food orders etc.
He told the audience that as licensee of the premises “If there’s a riot, the police will come to me.”
Going on to say that despite repeated requests, he’d received nothing in writing about the events, Cllr Perks felt that his “integrity was being put on the line.”
He continued that he’d received no official paperwork informing him of the drinks reception being held for the Robin McInnes Art Exhibition.
This was a private reception for which Mr McInnes had chosen to provide his own catering. Cllr Perks was concerned that he should have been informed about the reception and that free drinks were being provided, because if alcohol had been given to anyone underage, he as licensee for the premises would have been liable.
Cllr Perks finished his response to the question by Mrs Lockwood by saying that he felt Cllr Welsford should have told him at their last meeting that he’d been reported to the Ethical and Standards Committee and that because Cllr Welsford hadn’t mentioned anything at that meeting, that it had been the final twist of the knife.
The audience responds
This was met with great applause from the audience and Mrs Lockwood said “You’re going to be a great loss … I’m disgusted.”
This was met with more applause and cheers from the audience.
Several people started calling out and Cllr Welsford asked for order and for people to sit down.
Another man stood up and called out “There’s only one problem here … those four people” pointing to councillors at the front of the hall.
The Town Clerk called out several times asking for quiet and requested that the gentleman stop calling out and allow her to answer. This was met with jeers from the crowd and he continued talking.
The whole room then erupted in to shouting from the audience, with people stamping their feet on the floor.
One councillor was clearly seen (by the audience and other members of the council) to be ‘egging the audience on’ with his hand jestures (winding up signals).
Order please
A female member of the audience who didn’t give her name then asked for the Mayor to keep order saying “we all want to hear everyone’s opinions and not just the big mouths.”
Someone from the audience shouted to her “keep quiet then!”
The temporary Town Clerk, Tina Bailey then asked for the audience to hear what she had to say.
Town Clerk addresses the audience
“The Town council has to act within the local government act. There is no alternative – they have to comply with it.”
She went on to explain that the building has to be run as a commercial enterprise, but that two are not compatible which is why the town council want to hand it back to the community for the community to run.
This was met with the foot stamping and shouting again from the audience to which she continued “We can sit here and shout and get nowhere, or we can all work together.”
Another member of public stood up and called out “That’s because we care, we’ve got passion, none of you lot seem to care much about it, or us.”
Mayor’s response to Cllr Perks’ statement
Cllr Welsford stated that the choice made by Cllr Perks to leave the Winter Gardens was his own.
He told Cllr Perks that he felt he’d been disingenuous in his speech, by saying that he’d been referred to the Ethical and Standards Committee prior to the meeting mentioned.
Cllr Welsford confirmed that the referral had taken place in agreement with the former Town Clerk, John Farrant, and that it was Cllr Perks’ fault for not reading the code of conduct, particularly as it was a financial impropriety and that Cllr Perks was wrong to try and blame it onto the other Councillors.
He continued that the referral had happened after much soul searching, which he claimed Cllr Perks knew about because he’d written to him about it before making the referral.
Cllr Perks then said he knew nothing of the letter, but Cllr Welsford replied that “I can prove that you did.”
When is next Winter Gardens Management Committee Meeting?
Anthony Churchill, a member of the audience, called out asking why Cllr Perks had been reported and when the next Winter Gardens meeting would be, stating that the TC Website showed the next one wasn’t until December.
Cllr Welsford replied that the new Town Clerk was to be appointed that evening and everything would follow after that.
This was followed by more shouting from the audience who were asked again to remain seated and ask one question at a time.
More questions from the public
Jane Goodlet, Secretary for Ventnor Carnival then asked “How many shows are being put on? We’ve known this building is falling to pieces for years, it’s old news, we’ve know it for years – you’re not telling us anything new.” She went on to ask “When is the next show?”
Cllr Stubbings replied that the next show was on Thursday that week with Voices for the Hospice gig. It was a free event with a retiring collection in aid of the Earl Mountbatten Hospice.
Mrs Goodlet argued that this gig was not going to raise money for the roof.
Cllr Welsford said it was clear that one fundraising event alone was not going to save the roof, but reiterated that the Councillors had been working very hard to try and save the building.
This was met with the question “why have you cancelled shows then?”
Invalid contracts
Cllr Welsford replied that some shows had been cancelled because the contracts were invalid.
Calls of ‘rubbish’ came from the back of the hall along with more shouting from members of the audience.
Cllr Welsford said to the audience that if the shouting continued he would close the meeting.
Why some shows have been cancelled
Cllr Stubbings, who told the audience that he’d been helping out at the Winter Gardens for the last few weeks, went onto explain that why some of the shows had been cancelled.
He told the audience that some of them were cancelled by promoters due to the economic climate.
He made the invitation to all members of the audience if they’d like details of specific shows that had been cancelled, to see him after the meeting he would happily go through the details.
Cllr Mew then asked “Why isn’t the Chairman of WG here tonight?” This was met with great applause from the audience.
Cllr Welsford replied that Cllr George was on the mainland on business and had sent his apologies in advance of the meeting.
This was met with booing and hissing from the audience with comments such as “oh yeah” called out.
Public questions continue beyond the alloted 15 minutes
Twenty minutes in to public question time and another question from a member of the public, this time local garage owner, Mr Chilcott.
“Will there be a manager at the Winter Gardens? It used to be a mess, like a doss hole.”
Cllrs Welsford confirmed that they hoped to appoint a general manager shortly. Whilst trying to reply to the question, he was interrupted several times by Mr Chilcott.
When Cllr Welsford asked Mr Chilcott whether he intended to let him answer the question, he was met with screams of “You’ve got such a bad attitude”, “You shouldn’t be a councillor” from the back of the hall, supported by thumping, whistling and applause by the majority of the audience.
Mr Chilcott asked for his question to be answered to which Cllr Welsford replied that he had answered the question by saying “yes, that’s what going to happen.”
Mr Chilcott shouted “that’s not good enough, everyone agrees with me, that’s not good enough.”
Many members of the audience were calling out at the same time with comments such as “When are the flats coming?”
Town Clerk asked to withdraw statement
The next question came from Stewart Blackmore, manager of the Ventnor Golf Club.
After remarking that he hoped that the meeting wasn’t an interview for the temporary Town Clerk, as “she would have failed spectacularly”.
He said that the Town Clerk had stated that it’s not the business of a Town Council to run premises commercially. This was quickly corrected by Cllr Welsford who informed Mr Blackmore that she’d stated it was difficult situation to run a commercial organisation out of a Town Council.
Mr Blackmore continued that there were numerous examples up and down the country of Town Councils running commercial venues and he went onto say that it was not the position of someone on the payroll to make comment about whether the TC should run the venue.
He asked whether the Town Clerk like to withdraw her comment.
Cllr Welsford said he was happy that Town Clerk had not said anything she shouldn’t have.
Why free bar without licensees knowledge?
The next question came from Jill Craigs (sorry if wrong spelling), an ex-license holder. She asked how a function with free drinks could take place in the Winter Gardens.
“He’s (Cllr Perks) not going to make any money, how is that going to improve this property to have people bringing their own drink in?”
There seemed to be some confusion about what event she was referring to, she told Cllr Welsford that he’d (Cllr Welsford) said there was a private function for artists where free drinks were given out.
Cllrs Welsford said that he didn’t know anything about it. This was met with jeers and boos from the audience.
It was suggested by Cllr Stubbings that the event the lady was probably referring to was the one previously mentioned by Cllr Perks (Robin McInnes’ reception).
Cllr Stubbings told the audience that he’d been covering the office and that he didn’t know anything about the drinks reception either.
Cllr Perks confirmed it was the Robin McInnes’ event that the lady was referring to and that he hadn’t received any official paperwork about it either.
Cllr Welsford said that the TC would take on board what was being said by the public.
Someone then called out and asked if a fund raising event could take place, which was greeted with approval from the TC.
Another man called from the audience “Is is going to be cancelled first?” followed by laughter from the audience.
What happens to bar after Cllr Perks leaves WG?
Another member of the public asked, once Cllr Perks leaves the Winter Gardens what will happen at scheduled gigs, “would be bar be running?”
It was confirmed that alternative arrangements would be made to cover the bar after Cllr Perks leaves.
Question from former chair of Winter Gardens Committee
The next question came from ex-councillor Maureen Cawley, who is also on the Winter Gardens Action Group.
She was greeted with huge applause from the audience.
She asked why five shows (booked with UK Entertainments) had been cancelled. She said that the deal previously arranged was for all expenses paid and a 50/50 split.
“You don’t get a better deal than that” she continued and advised the TC that “all five artists are now appearing at the Quay Arts Centre and I’d should like to know why we turned them all down?”
Great applause from the audience.
Cllr Welsford replied that Mrs Cawley had asked the same question the previous meeting and that the events had been cancelled because they the acts did not have written contracts.
Calls of “Well done Maureen!” came from the audience.
Mrs Cawley stated that she herself had signed the contract for Linda Gail Lewis as well as booking the bed and breakfast. She said “If you’ve torn it up then I suggest that you should look in to this a little more carefully as it is very unethical.”
Cllr Welsford said it was difficult to continue to answer questions as he had not been dealing with the matter, but said “Maureen, you know the answer to the question.”
More views from the audience
A gentleman in the audience (didn’t give name) then stood up and gave a speech thanking the audience for attending the meeting and caring so much about the Winter Gardens.
This was met with applause from the audience. Cllr Welsford asked if the gentleman had a question to ask.
After some fumbling having lost his place on the sheet of paper he was reading from, he continued saying “The Winter Gardens is our heritage and that if it closes and you (the Town Council) let it close, Ventnor is going to die.”
Cllr Welsford asked again if he had a question.
After more applause from the audience he carried on saying that he felt that the “problems started with four people, doing something wrong, like having private meetings amongst themselves.”
Cllr Welsford said that he sympathised with what the man was saying but that he thought some assumptions were being made that were not correct.
“Let him speak” came the calls from the audience.
The man continued saying “The four people who have created who have created his trouble, in my eyes should be thrown thrown off the council and not be allowed back on any Council on the Isle of Wight for at least ten years.”
This was met with huge applause from the audience with stamping of feet, whistling, cheering and whooping.
Cllr Lucas steps in
Cllr Lucas then addressed the audience and told them that “it was more than four people who discussed what was going to happen to the Winter Gardens … we needed to do something radical.”
“It’s falling down and if we wait for it to fall down, you’ll all say ‘why didn’t you do something earlier?’ We’ve got to do something radical but where this committee had gone wrong is dealing with it insensitively” and he included himself in this.
He said that the mood of people in the audience and in the town was that they wanted things to move slowly and gradually, but “that if there are contracts which you know don’t work, you’ve got to look at them critically and be business like.”
He admitted that the TC had been insensitive, but not uncaring about what is needed for the building.
He went on to say that they were comforted that so many people were showing an interest in the future of the Winter Gardens.
He suggested that in future far more consultation takes place with the community before decisions are made and that he will insist on that in the future.
This was met with huge applause from the audience.
Second my proposal?
The gentleman who had earlier made the proposal that four of the councillors should be asked to leave the Town Council asked for it to be seconded.
Cllr Welsford said that he could not (only councillors can propose motions, to be seconded or refused by the TC, not members of the public).
Will Perks leaving result in job losses?
Another lady in audience (didn’t give name) asked the TC “What’s going to happen the 20 people who work here with Mr Perks?”
Cllr Welsford said he didn’t yet know what was going to happen. He told the audience that he’d hoped Cllr Perks would have reconsidered his resignation.
She went onto ask “Are you taking any bookings for Christmas?” to which Cllr Welsford answered that he wasn’t able to answer as he did not know at the moment.
At this point Cllr Welsford said they would accept two more questions.
Mark (sorry – didn’t catch surname) asked “You have admitted that none of you have any idea of how to run this place, so why try are you trying to take control from the one man who does?”
More applause from from the audience.
Cllr Welsford replied, “I explained that in the Chronicle last week. That was not my intention and I regret the fact that Cllr Perks has chosen to leave. He knows that as I had a long meeting with him and made it very clear how I felt and I’m sad that it’s come to this tonight.”
Listed status for the Winter Gardens?
Mrs Soames from the audience then suggested “Why not get listed status to preserve and go for heritage lottery grants.”
This was met with applause from the audience but answered by Cllr Lucas that listed status “can be kiss of death.”
He pointed out that it would mean restoring authentically at twice the cost of what is needed at, way more than the estimated £600,000.
Cllr Welsford closed the public question time and apologised to the audience that some of the answers had been disappointing for them (calls of ‘some of them?’ came from the audience) but he continued by stating that all the councillors do care about the Winter Gardens.
He carried on “I have so many other things in my life that I could be doing and I’m taking time out to do this.”
“Go then” and “Get lost” were called from the audience along with hissing, booing and thumping on the floor.
Cllrs Lucas said that audience could help the situation by trying and persuade Cllr Perks to stay as he and others had done.
“He can’t stay with the back stabbers” and similar comments came from the audience.
Cllr Welsford asked for quiet from the audience.
Calls of “Ooo what you gonna do?”, “If you’ve better things to do, get lost” and “Out, out, out” came from the audience.
Cllr Welsford called for order and reiterated that he hadn’t said “I’ve better things to do”, but that he’d chosen his words carefully.
This was met with more shouting and booing from the audience.
As the meeting moved on to the next agenda items, the vast majority of the audience slowly and noisily left the hall.
Next Agenda Item – Additional funding for Seabreeze Park
Cllr Scoccia suggested that item 7 be brought forward and discussed before the exclusion of the press and public, as there we some people in the audience keen to hear the discussion.
This was agreed by other councillors and the item discussed.
Cllr Welsford advised that additional funding for the children’s playground needed to be considered.
He explained that the TC had made provision for £750 towards the insurance/maintenance cost for the children’s playground, but that the isle of Wight Council were now saying the cost had risen to £1,500.
The councillors discussed whether they increase the funding to £1,500 rather than take on the responsibility for the maintenance and health and safety checks for the playground.
Cllr Mew against additional funding
Cllr Mew said “It’s all very well coming along and nibbling away at our funds but we have other projects that we’re committed to and one of them being allotments which is a statutory thing we should be doing and I feel we’ve got to say £750 is all we can afford.”
He went on to say that he welcomed the play area but thought the IWC should take on responsibility as they are a bigger collector of funds. He made it clear that he wouldn’t support an increase in the funds for the playground.
Cllr Lucas – No to risk and yes to funding
Cllr Lucas spoke next – saying that he wouldn’t support the TC taking on the risk of the health and safety of the playground. The playground was not just swings and roundabout, he said, but included some really innovative play.
He proposed that the TC find the additional £750 to ensure that the risk and responsibility lie with the IWC for the playground.
Cllr Scoccia also agreed that the TC should fund the extra money required and Cllr Stubbings added that he felt the TC does little for the youth in the town and that he supported I support the additional funding.
Cllr Mew stood again and argued that he felt the money should not be given.
He was asked to remain seated.
Vote passed
Cllr Welsford called for the vote which was passed with all councillors voting to increase the funds except Cllr Mew (9 for and 1 against).
The public were then asked to leave the meeting as the TC moved on to the next items on the agenda which were to ratify the appointment of a new Clerical Assistant and new Town Clerk.
