Letter: Are we really going to be ‘stronger out’ Mr Turner?

Despite Isle of Wight MP, Andrew Turner’s claim, Vix Lowthion (Isle of Wight Green Parety Leader) says it’s not at all clear that we will be ‘stronger out’ of the EU.

Vix Lowthion - green scarf

We always welcome a Letter to the Editor to share with our readers – unsurprisingly they don’t always reflect the views of this publication. If you have something you’d like to share, get in touch and of course, your considered comments are welcome below. Leader of the Isle of Wight Green party, Vix Lowthion, shares her latest views. Ed


“Get over it… You lost, deal with it.”

“Don’t stand in the way of the will of the British people.”

“Take back control…. Global Britain…”

And now, thanks to engrained Euro-sceptic/ Brexit banner-waving Isle of Wight Conservative MP, Andrew Turner, we can add a new one to the list:

“Stronger Out.”

No economic assessment for leaving EU without deal
Yes. Mr Turner addressed his constituents on Wednesday by telling us all “a global UK, will be stronger outside the EU” in a week where all evidence-based politics clearly indicated that is not the case. But we know that this Conservative Government refuse to do evidence based politics.

They pursue nuclear over renewables, grammars over accessible education, and now Brexit Secretary David Davis finally admits there is no economic assessment for leaving the EU with ‘no deal’. He admitted holidaying Britons will lose the EHIC health cards, UK farmers face tariffs of 40% on meat and dairy products and UK financial firms will lose ‘passporting rights’ across the EU.

But we’ll still be Stronger Out, Mr Turner?

Creating enemies, not friends
Citizens across all corners of the United Kingdom have also announced this week that they are looking closely at future membership of the Union. Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood claims we are heading “to the end of the UK as a state”, and Sinn Fein’s Martina Anderson told Theresa May to “stick the Brexit border where the sun doesn’t shine.”

And of course, imposing without negotiation a hard Brexit on Scotland where 62% of people voted Remain has led the SNP to set out their plans for a second independence referendum. The bumbling way this Conservative government is handling Brexit is creating enemies, not friends.

Still Stronger Out of the EU, Mr Turner?

Perception in Europe of negotiating style
Then there’s the matter of how the UK is now perceived by our European neighbours. Articles lead on “threats to turn the UK into a tax haven if no Brexit agreement is reached, have gone down like a bucket of cold sick,” [The Conversation] give you a clue as to how well our current negotiating style is going down across the channel.

Then there are the calls of ‘the 3million’ EU citizens and their families who are campaigning to preserve their rights to live and work in the UK, the 4.5 million Brits currently living abroad concerned about their future freedom of movement, and this week’s vote by MPs to stop 3,000 children fleeing from war and finding refuge in the UK.

Retreating back to dark days of Empire
Far from embracing ‘global Britain’, we are retreating back to the dark days of Empire when we spoke of all non-Brits as ‘foreigners’ (or worse) and thought only of how much money we could make from exploiting them. Arch-Brexiteer Daniel Hannan MEP tweeted this week “Happy Commonwealth Day to 2.5 billion people bound together by a dream of liberty” with happy colourful flags from India, Ghana, South Africa, Sri Lanka.

In reality, British took over their countries by force! Post-referendum talk of ‘Global Britain’ completely ignores dark parts of our nation’s history, as well as the priceless contributions of our recent immigrants from across the EU.

But, we are still Stronger Out says Mr Turner.

“MPs were not elected to be lemmings”
So strong out, that Conservative Chancellor Phillip Hammond refused to mention the word Brexit in his Budget. The slow-down in Economic growth, the weaker pound, rising inflation, rising house prices, lower tax revenue, lower business investment, lower immigration of skilled workers – all of the evidence points towards a hard Brexit pushing us right off a cliff.

“MPs were not elected to be lemmings” declared Green MP Caroline Lucas in the Commons, as MPs and Lords did just that and voted to enact Article 50 and leave the EU without any amendments to guarantee rights of EU nationals or MPs to have a say on the final terms or leaving. Parliament is so engrossed in following the ‘will of the British people’ and ‘taking back control’ that they have forgotten a huge part of an MPs job is to scrutinise legislation and make clear judgements about what is in the nation’s best interests.

Economically, to leave the world’s biggest single market without a clear plan other than slogans, is incredibly irresponsible. Car firms tell Theresa May that post-Brexit WTO tariffs on the 57% of UK cars which go are sold in the EU will lead to job losses. Counties such as Cornwall which voted Leave, are seeing that the UK government grants will not stretch to cover the loss of EU funded investment.

But Mr Turner still thinks we are ‘stronger out’.

Getting into bed with unsavoury characters
Leaving the EU at such a globally divisive time is far from wise. The election of President Trump, leadership votes in France and Germany in the coming weeks, increasing threat and instability from climate change, and world conflicts bringing the main powers into close proximity on the battlefields in the Middle East: now is not the time any experienced leader would pursue a policy to go it alone in the world.

Hastily making friends with dictators, dodgy regimes and world corporations is not only economically weak, but we are getting into bed with some rather unsavoury characters. Relying on the likes of disgraced Liam Fox to secure our trading future, at the same time as Theresa May insists we must leave the European Convention on Human Rights, is heading us towards a ‘global Britain’ where we have fewer rights, fewer friends and fewer morals than our European neighbours.

And yet still Mr Turner believes we are ‘stronger out of the EU’.

PM claimed ‘Stronger In’
I believe in evidence-based political decisions. I believe our leaders should equip themselves with all the facts, the reports and the forecasts and campaign and vote accordingly.

It is not at all clear that we will be ‘stronger out’. In fact, our Prime Minister and many of her cabinet less than a year ago were travelling across the country, declaring that we are ‘stronger IN’. With all the economic and environmental upheaval, the splits in the Union, the closing of doors on our migrant friends, the cosying up to questionable regimes – I believe that Mr Turner will be seen to be on the wrong side of history.

It isn’t strong to blindly cross fingers and hope for the best: it is weak. Strong leadership comes from those who recognise the pressures we face in an increasingly global world, and choose to work with our neighbours to overcome them – not to leave them behind and go it alone.

References
OnTheWight: Isle of Wight MP celebrates imminent triggering of Article 50

Independent: Brexit: David Davis admits government has done no economic assessment of UK crashing out of the EU without a deal

Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum call prompts demands for Welsh and Northern Irish independence votes

The Conservation: Red lines and red rags: Europeans unimpressed by Britain’s tough talk on Brexit

Telegraph: What will Brexit mean for British expats?

New Statesman: The 12 bits of Brexit bad news hidden in the Budget 2017

Friday, 17th March, 2017 8:23am

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Filed under: Government, Island-wide, Letter to the Editor, Top story

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Any views or opinions presented in the comments below are solely those of the author and do not represent those of OnTheWight.

64 Comments

  1. Steve Goodman


    17.Mar.2017 8:51am

  2. Long time since we’ve heard from vix on these pages.
    Must be an election looming

    • Vix Lowthion


      17.Mar.2017 9:43am

      You know more than me then, considering this is about the EU Referendum and Westminster politics? Looking forward to hearing about the country being asked to have a say/ vote on what Brexit looks like,and electing a different set of post referendum MPs!

      (Sorry busy time of year on run up to A level exams to comment much on these pages – though we were here 3 weeks ago with Caroline Lucas visit)

      • Suruk the Slayer


        17.Mar.2017 10:32am

        Unfortunately, the wishes of the 48% who wished to remain in the EU are being completely ignored.

        Theresa May is doing this at her own peril. By the time of the next General Election a lot of support for Brexit will have waned as the inevitable “hard” Brexit that will result from May’s intransigent stance will badly hit living standards across the country.

        She also need to take into account all the young people who were disenfranchised by the Brexit vote who will now be eligible to vote in the General Election, and all of the Brexit supporters who will no longer be eligible to vote due to being deceased under.

        It saddens me that so many who had no say in this were dragged down this route by so many who will not be affected by its long term effects.

        • Sts.
          How do you know the wishes of the 48% are being ignored (other than the wish to remain).
          Article 50 has not yet been invoked and negotiations have not yet started so nobody can yet say with any certainty what will/will not happen in the next two years.

          • Suruk the Slayer


            17.Mar.2017 2:21pm

            Theresa May: “No deal is better than a bad deal”

            That is how I know.

            No, we cannot say with certainty what will transpire during negotiations, but May’s belligerent attitude doesn’t bode well.

        • How do you explain away the fact that a large percentage of young people on the electoral roll during the referendum could not be bothered to get up and vote ? And what makes you think that remainders don’t die ?

          • Suruk the Slayer


            20.Mar.2017 4:30pm

            On you first point, I agree, that it is sad that a lot of young people are so apathetic about politics. They don’t believe that voting will make a real difference to them, so don’t bother. They are likely to regret that in the next few years.

            Those that *did* vote, voted overwhelmingly (63%) to remain.

            Leavers are more likely to die than remainers as they are from older age groups. Simple biology (heart disease, stroke, increasing frailty, etc) and statistics (more of older age groups voted and more of them voted leave).

      • Vix.
        Are you seriously trying to say that the timing and content of your ‘letter’ have nothing to do with the upcoming council elections. Greens not putting forward any candidates for that then?.

        • Vix Lowthion


          17.Mar.2017 11:56am

          Yes I am saying that. It’s a reactionary response to Andrew Turner’s press release earlier in the week – not an orchestrated/timed/election press release.

          Yes they’ll be lots of Green candidates in the election – but none of them campaigning on this Brexit issue, so it’s hardly relevant. But thanks for continuing to boost the hits on this page.

          • So sad that you find it necessary to register any sort of hit as a bolster to the green cause.
            Only too glad to be of assistance to boost your ego.

          • Suruk the Slayer


            17.Mar.2017 3:32pm

            So sad, Alan, that you feel the need to bolster your own petty insecurities by hurling personal jibes.

            Brexit could, actually, be the best thing that could happen to the Green Party.

            Come 2020, the effects of the forthcoming “hard” brexit will be biting hard. The Tories and UKIP will be discredited (UKIP already are, courtesy of Mr Nuttall) and we could very well be seeing Vix as one of our MPs.

        • Logically though. ..how does this help the green party ?

        • Luisa Hillard


          17.Mar.2017 2:31pm

          Only UKIP ever made Europe a campaign issue in the run up to Council elections, which seemed rather pointless to me, seeing as how the Council has little to no influence on national government decisions.

          In her role as the Green Party parliamentary candidate it is entirely appropriate that she comments on, and challenges, national government policy.

          Always happy to have a constructive debate! And, in the run up to the Council elections, it is clear that Andrew Turner has suddenly decided to take an interest in local government to help his Conservative colleagues hold on to their seats.

          Those that voted against him must be rather concerned right now, although duty to Party appears to come first.

          • Yes. Even though she’s a greeny she can still voice an opinion…I don’t see how she’s helping her party win votes but she does have a right., as we all do to her opinion..why are snidey comments about elections being made?

          • Luisa Hillard


            18.Mar.2017 10:06pm

            Pigwig, in my experience both sides of any argument always think they are right.

            Humans are very tribal and whether is be our football team, or our political party, our self-esteem is somewhat affected by their success.

            There is therefore a need by some to defend one’s position from {a strong candidate from a different ‘team’ and] the perceived threat of a public kicking come election time. :D

  3. The Ancient Matelot


    17.Mar.2017 11:52am

    This all highlights what is wrong with government by referenda. Asking a simple question and then hoping that the losers will just accept it. Didn’t solve anything in Scotland and will not solve much in this case. Politicians are elected to govern, not to abrogate their duties to the general public!

    The politicians asked the British public what they wanted. Having asked them, (and yes, I know that, strictly speaking, the result was purely “advisory”), there is not much choice to get on with it and carry out the bidding of the majority. I voted for remain, but I accept that I lost. It would be much better if the politicians of all parties worked to help the government gain the best exit strategy.

    As for the comments about the commonwealth, this is simply silly. Of course we, along with most of the other countries of the EU, who also had empires, some much worse than ours (something that is often forgotten),did things that today would be seen as unforgivable. However, the Commonwealth (no longer the British Commonwealth), is an organisation to which the members belong because they wish to, so yes we are bound together, but not by force.

    Rghtly or wrongly, the decision not to agree to automatically allow those who live in the UK to remain is not without good reason. Turn it around for just a moment and put yourself in the shoes of a British Citizen who has made a life in one of the several European countries who have refused to grant the same status to you until after negotiations have been started. How would you be feeling now if we had granted this guarantee and left them high and dry? Why are we not accusing those governments of being un-reasonable?

    Given good will on both sides, it should be possible to settle this matter without acrimony. Unfortunately, as has been proved in the case of both the recent referenda, all they have achieved is to bring out the worst in people.

    However, it is very nice to have the luxury of standing on the sidelines and carping at those who are charged with sorting out Brexit. It would be nice to see what the Green Party would do if they had been in government.

    • Vix Lowthion


      17.Mar.2017 12:03pm

      It would be good if the government would work with the other parties to formulate a Brexit strategy – so far they have refused to protect the rights of EU citizens in the UK and refused to formally document they will consult with parliament on the terms of the Brexit deal.

      I am not asking to overturn the results of the referendum. I am asking why Mr Turner is so confident we will be Stronger Out. And how the Referendum has created more questions and debate than it has settled.

      The Green Party Brexit would involved fulfilling the content of the ballot paper – to leave the EU – but would prioritise the rights of EU and UK nationals to remain in their countries. It would prioritise a vision of our countryside and farming outside the EU, membership of the common market, environmental protections.

      In fact, close to a version of EEA membership similar to Norway – which Farage et al promised voters would be possible after a Leave vote. Instead we have lunged to the far ‘hard Brexit’ and isolated ourselves from other EU nations in the process.

      This is not an effective way to negotiate. Hard Brexit will be costly for our economy, human rights, and the huge number of bureaucrats we will need to employ to work on a hard Brexit deal.

      So yes – not carping on the sidelines, but actually detailing a better vision of a Brexit Britain.

      • The Ancient Matelot


        17.Mar.2017 7:08pm

        Surely in any negotiation both sides outline what they would like and then work towards a compromise. Presumably that is why Mrs May is talking about a hard Brexit. Trouble with all you politicians is you disagree with something then when your opposite number agrees you call it a u turn!

    • Exactly. We have a son and d in l in Barcelona. I would have been very unhappy if they had been left ‘high and dry’ as TAM commented. We need to look after own.

  4. Vix, are you sure that “this is about the EU Referendum and Westminster politics?”

    This is only sour grapes politics;The opposition opposing the party in power, challenged with doing the best for its electorate.

    Only harm can be done if you continue to harass the Government in a Nicola Sturgeonesk (not sure what the correct word should be) way.

    In my eyes this is about DEMOCRACY.
    The referendum is a done deal. Had the result been otherwise it would have been accepted.
    Please put the best interests of the country first, that is a country soon to be free from Brussels.

    You should be concentrating on matters closer to home, as stated.

  5. Rather than being negative how about getting behind it and making the most of it.
    The majority of the country voted out.
    If u dont like democracy then maybe a job change?

    • Suruk the Slayer


      17.Mar.2017 2:33pm

      The problem is that the majority was exceedingly small, and the question only dealt with leave or remain, not whatever comes next.

      If you want to get people behind Brexit, you need to give them a reason to get behind it.

      If May were a little more reasonable in her expectations about what kind of deal we will be able to strike with the EU then I would happily be behind it.

      But the current obsession by May & Co that we either get a “cake-and-eat-it” deal (not happening, ever) or “no deal” (almost certain) means that remain supporters’ worst fears of Brexit are coming true.

      Under those circumstances, no, I will not “get behind it”.

    • If you don’t like free speech. ..maybe don’t read..

  6. okayanyway


    17.Mar.2017 1:36pm

    Yes making the most of BREXIT, that is exactly what we should be doing, why should we accept that we can only be successful as part of Europe? I am personally sick to death of hearing the remain camps continuous moaning and moaning..,

    You should have campaigned harder for staying in Europe. The vote may have then been different.

    Vix, show us exactly what you did to get the public to vote REMAIN? Just sprouting this pre election drivel will not get people to vote for you, especially when more islander voted Ukip than Green at the last council and general elections. Mr Turner may have been elected on his anti-Europe stance alone.

    • Suruk the Slayer


      17.Mar.2017 2:42pm

      We will, almost certainly, rejoin the EU at a later date.

      The Brexit vote was swung by those of older generations, each year more of those become ineligible to vote, while more young people who will have to live with the effects of Brexit reach the Age of Majority.

      Then there will be a large number of people who will be badly affected by Austerity++ that the likely “hard” Brexit will prompt.

      We will start campaigning for a referendum to rejoin (that’s democracy for you) and will eventually get one. Maybe 10 or 15 years time.

      By that time enough of the old Brexiters will be pushing up daisies, and enough young people will be looking at what those old Brexiters stole from them. The vote will be to Rejoin, and Rejoin we will.

      We will, of course, have to accept full free movement and the Euro, which we wouldn’t if we hadn’t voted out in the first place.

      But that’s democracy for you.

    • Leeroy Ox


      17.Mar.2017 4:23pm

      How does one “sprout” drivel?

      Does it appear as green shoots or is it more a brown coloured pro-Brexit kind of thing?

  7. Rupert Besley


    17.Mar.2017 2:47pm

    37% of the electorate voted out. 63% didn’t. That is not ‘the majority of the country’.

    The points (well put) in the letter above are valid arguments, founded on evidence. Those who, apparently unable to contest such points, choose instead to go for personal digs, really do their own cause no good. Such responses merely confirm the strength of the points first made.

    The ‘get over it’ line is least satisfactory of all, revealing an apparent inability to consider or understand anyone else’s point of view. If I were to take away your home, you would feel entitled to protest about it. My adding ‘get over it, get on with it’ would help no one.

    Had the Referendum gone the other way, with so small a margin, my first thought would have been that the Government of the day needs urgently to tackle the issues causing so much discontent among so many people and theirs should not have been a wasted vote. Half the country seriously dissatisfied with political set-ups is not a basis for stability. And not even its strongest supporter would ever have suggested the EU was perfect and not in need of urgent restraint and reform. But this government has steadfastly turned its back on the 48% who ‘lost’. That’s where the negativity lies.

    • The Ancient Matelot


      17.Mar.2017 7:14pm

      Not all of us who have disagreed with the letter have made digs but reasons why we have disagreed. It is sad when people resort to personal abuse or snide remarks etc., but politicians are experts at that sort of behaviour

  8. Amberlight


    17.Mar.2017 4:36pm

    Well said Vix Lowthion ..someone who speaks for so many of us .In days too come we are going too see many people suffer because they didn’t look at the long term future ,but made an emotive vote based on ignorance of the facts and xenophobia . A yes -No vote on something as life changing for a nation as this was not good. It needed much more time and debate.
    The future belongs too our young people and it was the older generation that chose for them. I fear for them I really do we have taken from them so much more that we realise .
    We are no longer an Empire and we are now going to trade mostly with countries with some of the worst human rights records in the world today ,Saudi Arabia who practice strict Sharia Law (we love them by the way) Israel who have illegal settlements, and are the occupiers of Palestine and declared an apartheid state by the UN, China ,where there are NO workers rights and India where slave Labour and workers rights hardly exist. Then of course we have the USA ….TRUMP!
    This hard Brexit is going too be just that …we are already seeing a huge rise in food prices and the single market is starting too fade from view.
    I remember going too the debate about Brexit at Quay arts and all the business men saying we would still be in the single market and we would keep all our rights blah blah …wonder what they are saying now ? because it is now becoming our worse nightmare. Please can anyone tell me what we have too trade with ,besides Arms? and who sees the profits for those ?..a list would be good …anybody got one ?..

  9. Sorry Vix. Lost me at ‘ evidence-based politics ‘ what’s that when its at home…new one on me…but evidence is that the majority of people who voted ( note…who voted…). voted for Brexit? You castigate our MP for saying that the UK will be stronger out. But the fact is nobody knows, do you – no , because you can’t. So whilst you may disagree with his statement you can’t provide evidence that he is wrong because there isn’t any yet. What really winds me up is the number of politicians of ALL sides who don’t seem to understand democracy and continue to whinge….why can’t they work to help get the best deal in the circumstances, if the vote had been the opposite result would they have entertained the whinging that’s going in?

    • billy builder


      18.Mar.2017 8:28am

      Beacher, when you take a leap into the abyss it is not the leap that hurts. Indeed initially as you jump you might actually be going up. It is not even the falling that hurts. But there will be a landing, an extremely nasty crash landing.

      The Tory press are waging a continuous disinformation campaign, highlighting anything negative about the EU but not reporting the massive costs and risks of BRexit. This is tantamount to fake news.

    • Vix Lowthion


      18.Mar.2017 8:54am

      ‘Evidence based’ as in grounded on tangible facts which we see and hear, not mere hopes for the future that we will be ‘Stronger Out’. Absolutely, Andrew Turner does not know this. And he is quite wrong to claim it.

      The evidence is clear and what we see currently – splits in the Union, isolation in Europe, friends with unsavouries, attacks on freedom of movement, companies focusing on resilience outside the single market rather than investment in UK jobs. There is your evidence. The Brexit vote has not made us stronger as a nation. It has emphasised divisions, many of them based on lies and Fake News.

      The solution is not just to ‘pull together and make it work’ – because we differ in our beliefs in what will make it work. Theresa May continues to pursue hard Brexit, when so many experts and voters did not choose that option (in fact it was never offered to the British people). Pursuing extremes rarely works out well, does it.

  10. mark francis wdp


    18.Mar.2017 9:23am

    But what’s it all going to cost, that’s what I want to know?

    (Actually it’s not- because nobody knows; what I really want to know is who is going to pay for it?)

  11. Iain McKie


    18.Mar.2017 11:46am

    I was surprised about how little Vix Lowthion knew about environmental legislation and decision-making at the European level during the referendum campaign. This ought to have been home turf for a Green Party representative. I had similar experiences with other senior Greens, notably over the HFC23 fiasco. Consequently I have found it difficult to take them seriously on EU issues.

  12. iain mckie


    18.Mar.2017 7:30pm

    My point is that we have someone who is calling for evidence based answers, when they had not bothered to research their own subject in the first place. It makes them either a charlatan or an opportunist.

    • I hope this is your own view not that of a political party please can you clarify ?

    • Suruk the Slayer


      19.Mar.2017 8:42am

      You joined and stood for a party (UKIP) led by a man (Farage) who, by his current dalliance with Trump, has revealed himself, absolutely, as a self obsessed demagogue. A man who cares only for his own self glorification. A man who, while claiming to be a man of the people, is now demand to be given a place in the House of Lords.

      A party you have now left because you have finally realised what it truly stood for.

      If Vix is a “charlatan or opportunist”, what does that make you? Either you knew the true nature of UKIP and it’s leadership (how could you not, millions of others could see it quite clearly), which makes an opportunist of epic proportions or, if you didn’t, a fool of the same dimensions.

      I respectfully suggest you give up politics. You have been outed (ironically, by yourself) as someone who’s judgement falls so far below that expected for someone who aspires to public office that it is positively subterranean.

  13. I know young people who voted to leave the EU, because they studied the history of the European movement. They realised it had been based on deception from the start. Though in their education they had been pumped full of EU propaganda, they were able to see past this. In the 1975 referendum people were asked “DO YOU THINK THAT THE UNITED KINGDOM SHOULD STAY IN THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (THE COMMON MARKET)?” The answer was a simple Yes or No. It was not clearly put to the voters that they would have to accept the supremacy of EC law. Even though this was in the Treaty of Rome, most people were not aware of that, a trading arrangement was all most people thought they were voting for. Heath, Heseltine and many others in Parliament were guilty of this misrepresentation. Heath of course blatantly lied when he got elected, by saying we would not go in without the full hearted consent of the British people. Wilsons referendum in 1975 was more to do with internal Labour Party problems over membership and kept up the pretence of it being just a trading arrangement.

    Actions of the EU over the years such as ignoring referendums, removing elected politicians in both Greece and Italy and replacing them with unelected Goldman Sachs lackeys, certainly wasn’t democracy in action. This made many people query where this was going, were they really being ruled by the corrupt banks who caused the 2008 crash. These same banks of course financed the Remain campaign. It is no wonder that Goldman Sachs runs a Global leaders programme and loves the EU, the EU is a Globalist stepping stone to further Global control. Those that know the history of the EU and have really studied how it works, voted leave.

    Negative predictions about our future in the EU based on previous actions could have been made by leavers had we voted to remain. The EU interest in Ukraine and Georgia certainly suggest an empire building aim, the expansion that has happened since 1975 was never suggested then.

  14. Suruk the Slayer


    19.Mar.2017 8:55am

    And I know elderly people who voted “remain” because they fought, in the literal sense of the word, against the kind of rabid nationalism that is now on the rise around the world.

    As for Ukraine and Georgia? They have a choice between the EU or Putin’s Russian Federation. Can’t see any EU troops in Ukraine blatantly posing as location opposition militia, can you?

    Like it or not, the EU isn’t an “empire” and it’s leadership *is* democratic, despite the rants of Brextiteers. The same cannot be said of Russia and Putin.

    • Billy Builder


      19.Mar.2017 9:22am

      Or May’s extreme right government.

      • Suruk the Slayer


        19.Mar.2017 11:05am

        May is as self-serving as they come. She has always been a Brexiteer, but played the part of “remainer” because she fully expected the remain camp to win the referendum and valued her position in the cabinet more than her ideology.

        Now she spouts one-nation drivel while stabbing the “JAMs” she purports to support​ in the back on the blood-soaked altar of nationalism.

  15. Suruk let me start off by one thing we agree on and that’s Putin, it doesn’t change the fact that the EU is continually expanding. Many eastern European countries who breathed a sigh of relief when freed from Russian control, are not overly happy with so much EU intervention in how they run their countries. Rabid Globalism is being opposed by what some call populism – you call rabid Nationalism, your term presumably makes rabid Globalism okay.

    George Soros, billionaire, is one of the planet’s premier advocates of global central planning and control and an EU buddy. The EU involvement with the Ukraine is generally down to him. He is known as the man who broke the Bank of England. In 1992 he short-sold more than £7.6bn in the currency – meaning he would make money if its value fell. So when the UK crashed out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism and the pound collapsed, Soros pocketed over a billion dollars. Interesting, of course, is that the rabid EU supporter John Major took us into the ERM, well I will not trust his views on the EU. Soros is also involved in the European migrant crisis. Is he helping them for altruistic reasons, or a cheap labour market? Peter Sutherland, one time EU Commissioner, worked for Goldman Sachs, now UN Special Representative of the Secretary-General for International Migration. Peter Sutherland said in the House of Lords in 2012 that the EU should do its best to undermine the homogeneity of its Member States by encouraging more migration and greater multiculturalism. Angela Merkel duly followed instructions. Well what very kind-hearted people these Globalists are, it’s not down to helping Transnational companies get a cheap labour force, of course.

    When the EU allow the elected MEPS to form the Commission so they can be voted out by the people if they don’t play fair, then come back and tell me it’s democratic and I will agree. Removing elected people in member states and replacing them with unelected Goldman Sachs alumni is democratic is it, I think not.

    Billy builder, I have not seen Theresa’s storm troopers in leather trousers coming down the road yet, bit slow for an extreme right government.

    • Suruk the Slayer


      19.Mar.2017 1:38pm

      Suggest you do some fact checking regarding the comparative powers of the European Parliament and European Commission.

      Nothing the Commission proposes can be enacted without the approval of the European Parliament.

      Maybe Theresa May could learn a little about democracy from them, eh?

  16. Suruk I have done fact checking over the years and have seen reports of the Commission ignoring MEP votes, but that wasn’t the point I raised which you chose to ignore. It is not the EU websites claimed democracy it is the actual end results. Obviously proper discussion cannot be had with many Remainers, but it is no wonder with the likes of Blair and the real gravy train characters like Mandelson and Kinnock on your side.

  17. Karl Love


    20.Mar.2017 1:03am

    Of course it’s all about electioneering!

    I’m a town councillor and I know how important it is for all Cllr’s to get their voice and message heard in the run up to the elections. Thats what politics it’s all about at this point in time! Let’s not run away from that facts and simply tell the population of our island, things that might generate votes to win seats. Let’s be real and transparent and say what we mean not what we think can generate votes.

    I know lots of young people who voted to Leave the EU and I’m very tired of our older people being blamed! Havent many of our older population always voted to support, protect and encourage the build of a brighter future for their children and grand children? They have done this for most of their lives and the Ageism, which has been expressed, is very destructive and unhelpful to all parts of our population.

    We need to accept whats happened, work together and get the best possible deal we can for the people of our Country.

    Vix commentary reads like a scare mongering Party Political Broadcast. Vix could have been inspirational and told us of how she and her party would carry us through the Brexit proses! In stead of being negative and destructive offering little in the way of solutions or positivity!

    I would have talked about how we could build upon world trade casting the net wide and far. I would be accepting of the complexities ahead. I would have encouraged people to think outside the box and look for new avenues for business, job and income generation. I would ask people to engage and see this as a challenge to be over come. I Would try to be inspirational and dynamic,

    The general public are tired of Old Stye politics and I want to think about the future not the past.

    We need our politicians to value the past and learn from it, but move forward into a new the future, carrying all perspectives with them and trying to
    make Brexit work. We can of course use the “evidence base” negatively or turn it into something more creative and positive to carry us forward.

    Whatever you feel about the May elections, please vote and be a part of democracy

    Cllr Karl Love

    • Suruk the Slayer


      20.Mar.2017 9:19am

      You know young people who voted leave, I know some over 70s who voted remain. That is purely anecdotal.

      The statistics, though, are very clear. The vote to leave was swung by the older generation, and the younger the group, the more voted remain.

      That is a fact.

      Theresa May and her Government. “No deal is better than a bad deal”. Not a bone for the 48% who didn’t want this. Not a word of hope that it might not be as bad as we fear.

      And as for “learning from the past”? With Trump in the US and the hard-right on the rise here and in the rest of Europe. Fear of foreigners. Isolationism. Rampant nationalism. The suppression of the free press.

      We appear to be repeating the mistakes of 80 years ago instead of learning from them.

      Sorry for the negativity, but I am one person. I observe what is going on here, and around the world and it fills me with dread. The only power I have is the ability to put a cross in a box, and that is little power indeed when silver tongued liars are deceiving the populace.

    • billy builder


      20.Mar.2017 9:40am

      Cllr Love. The older generations voted BRexit by enlarge based on a rose tinted view of their youth that ignored the reality of the 1950s and 1960s where British industries were unable to compete across the world and the Commonwealth markets were declining. Together with the views of the right-wing bigoted press that blamed all the countries woes on jonny foreigner in general and the EU in particular. Far from securing the future for their children these older BRexit voters have blighted their children’s futures.

      • There are many reasons why the older generation voted Brexit and sealking to attach blame does not help anyone. I have said, older people have children and have a life experience of voting to support and protect their children.
        Your definitions and reasons for explaining how and why older people voted to Leave, as they did, are presumptions and far too narrow and hurtful. Its all a bit academic now so please look to the future and tell us what you would do to make this work better and offer solutions.

        This is my point, we need to look to the future accepting that it’s happening and make the very best of it . The doom and gloom commentary of Vix is not helpful and as we can read, it’s divisive.
        Our political leaders need to be positive and tell us how they will make it work. That’s what I’m saying

        Karl

        • Steve Goodman


          20.Mar.2017 11:04am

          ‘This is my point, we need to look to the future accepting that serious harm is happening and stop doing it. The additional doom and gloom created by the brexiteers’ spanner in the works is not helpful and as we can read, it’s divisive. Our political leaders need to halt and reverse the damage and tell us, for example, how and when they will do what they said at the climate crisis conference instead of doing the opposite. That’s what I’m saying.’

        • billy builder


          20.Mar.2017 11:34am

          Cllr Love. With the greatest respect the vast majority of the 62.5% of voters who did not vote BRexit will never forget or forgive the hard line BRexiteers who are driving this country to economic and social destruction. Likewise a significant number of BRexit voters will resent those hard right Tories who duped them with lies and fake news into voting for the ensuing devastation.

          Respected politition’s, economists, bankers and industrialists of both the centre-left and centre-right will continue to fight the stupidity that is BREXIT.

        • The idea that people are going to just abandon their deeply held beliefs and instead sign up to a cause they passionately disagree with is rather naive.

          I am sure however that most Remainers will engage and work as hard for a successful Brexit as Euro-sceptics have in the past engaged and worked for a successful Europe.

          • Suruk the Slayer


            20.Mar.2017 12:46pm

            Absolutely.

            Look at how hard most UKIP MEPs worked for their constituents.

            I’m sure I can put in at least as much effort to ensure Brexit is a success.

        • Suruk the Slayer


          20.Mar.2017 1:05pm

          Vix, as you might have noticed, is not a “political leader” (yet).

          Those that *are* our political leaders (Theresa May, Boris Johnson, David Davis) are the ones being divisive by completely ignoring the 48% who did not want Brexit.

          And as for “doom and gloom”, sorry, she is just telling it like it is. We *will* be very much worse off after Brexit. That is a forgone conclusion, and one that the hardline Brexiteers actually say is a price worth paying to get control of our borders and laws.

    • Steve Goodman


      20.Mar.2017 9:40am

      ‘Of course it’s not all about electioneering.

      Thanks to the Turner/Trump style ‘it’s all going to be great folks’ (contrary to the evidence) bs, we all have even more to be seriously concerned about.

      They know how important it is for them to get their voice and message heard, because a lot of people accept it without question, and they like being elected to power and taking care of their lucky friends. They don’t seem to worry enough about the present and future effects of further damaging decisions, possibly because they are still safely insulated by comparative comfort and wealth and somehow unable or unwilling to take the essential long term view needed to halt and reverse the continuing disastrous damage for any sort of worthwhile future! Let’s not run away from facts and simply tell the population of our island things that might generate votes to win seats. Let’s be real and transparent and say what we mean not what we think can generate votes. Let’s have more people like Vix and Caroline Lucas in politics, because they are informed and honest.

      I know some people of all ages voted to leave the EU and I know nearly as many people voted not to and I’m very tired of the ‘Britain voted to leave’ bs, because only 37.4% went for it following a ‘frying pan or fire with both sides lying and not knowing’ limited choice. Haven’t many of our older population (and Conservatives?) always voted to support, protect and encourage the build of a brighter future for their children and grand children? They have done this for most of their lives and the abandonment of it, which is all too obvious, is very destructive and unhelpful to all parts of our population.

      We need to see whats happened and what’s been done stupidly to our environment and only life support system, work together and get the best possible deal we can for the people of all our countries.

      The commentary from intelligent and informed observers is scary thanks to the poor political choices we have to deal with. Vix is inspirational and she and her party and those like her who do know and care about what really matters are actually our best bet to carry us through the current environmental and economic omnishambles. Instead of adding negative and destructive decisions which worsen our predicament and deliberately avoiding the solutions or positivity seen at the end of the last climate crisis conference!

      I would have talked about how we could build upon good practice casting the net wide and far. I would be accepting of the dangers now and ahead. I would have encouraged people to think and look and to end the stupid ‘business as usual’ mentality which got us where we are. I would ask people to engage and see this as the most urgent life-threatening ‘challenge’ needing to be over come. I would try to be sensible and serious.

      Increasingly the general public are tired of and alarmed by the ‘Old Style’ politics responsible for our present situation and I want to think about the future and not ignore the lessons of the past.

      We need our politicians to value what matters, to learn from the past, and to start to move forward into a sustainable future, especially as ‘Brexit’, Trump’s presidency, and other shocks are adding to the urgent work needing to be done to halt and reverse the damage. We can and should of course use evidence from safe sources and turn it into something more creative and positive to carry us forward.

      Whatever you feel about the May elections, please vote sensibly and be a part of what passes for democracy now, and try to get whoever is in power to start to do the right thing.’

      And try to do what you can for yourselves when the politicians will not.

    • Vix Lowthion


      20.Mar.2017 1:55pm

      But Karl, I have explained how to make Brexit work the best we can. That’s through leaving the EU (if we must) but retaining the rights of EU citizens here and UK citizens abroad, through remaining in the single market, and through prioritising our human, workers’ and environmental rights.

      In a nutshell, a ‘soft’ Brexit.

      Our political leaders continuing to pursue a Hard Brexit is what will do the biggest amount of damage. It doesn’t have to be that way. We don’t have to enact Article 50 just weeks before France and Germany hold their elections – we could wait, and work with their (possibly) new leaders.

      This rush into leaving at all costs is what will prove the biggest mistake.

      • billy builder


        20.Mar.2017 2:27pm

        Vix, May has to have this done and duster before the next EU elections as if it is not then that election becomes a defacto second referendum, which by 2019 May would lose.

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